firstorderforceuser:

ohtze:

hyperscanvindicator:

ohtze:

thehermitsacedia:

Interesting. I’m curious about your views about Ben/Kylo. I think I see what you mean, but I don’t think Kylo becoming Ben again is necessarily taking a step backward. He can’t erase the things he’s done, he will be forever scarred, he can’t go back to the innocent boy he was, clearly, so “Kylo” won’t magically disappear. BUT Kylo can finally accept to be Han and Leia’s son, and that’s the true meaning behind Ben’s name. Because at the end, his character arc seems to be an identity quest, a choice between two legacies : his parents and Luke’s, or Vader’s. So I think talking about a redeemed Kylo as “Ben” isn’t unjustified, and when I think about it I find it damn relevant, because names are important in Kylo’s story. He tries to define himself, to find a place in the world, and at the moment he wants to be anything but Ben Solo. But his identity as Leia and Han’s son is damn important, and I think will be addressed in future films. Because Star Wars is a story about names, identity, and family legacy. I have the strong impression that this all Ben/Kylo dichotomy will somehow play like that :

Luke: I’ve accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.
Vader: That name no longer has any meaning for me.
Luke: It is the name of your true self. You’ve only forgotten.

When I talk about having major issues with this Ben/Kylo thing, it has nothing to do with the erasure of what he’s done (that’s a separate issue). It has everything to do with the dismantling and compartmentalizing of a person’s identity in order to fit an ideological narrative (see: the treatment of women in media, virgin/whore dichotomy, how there’s good vs bad behavior to reward, etc).

I also have major issues with this because of the fact that Kylo’s whole arc is an identity quest (as you mentioned) – his own – and yet people insist on identifying him with his past. With shoving him into a narrative he seems kind of uncomfortable with to begin with. Unless you subscribe to something like my evil space twin theory, Ben and Kylo are the same person. This is their identity, so why this frenetic insistence on separating the two into a black-vs-white dichotomy? The movies are partially to blame for this, but like… when you separate people’s identities (see: Ben = good, Kylo = bad, which is the subtext) and then say something along the lines of the quote you provided, you’re basically telling a person they have to kill off a core part of themselves in order to become “who they’re truly meant to be.” You are telling someone else who they are as a person – you are talking over their voice. You are speaking over them and (inadvertently) refusing to acknowledge who they see themselves as, as a person. I mean, that’s what’s happening here, on a subtextual level. Do people not see this? Because I do, clear as day, and I find this incredibly unsettling.

Now things are gonna get cleared up in subsequent novelizations and movies, and one it does my opinion might change. Few things are locked in stone. But in the meantime this whole dichotomy of Ben-vs-Kylo (and how its being talked about in fandom) is actually kinda insensitive. But again, this is something I’m going to explain in detail in the meta essay, and once I do people are obviously free to pick it apart at their leisure. My apologies that I can’t go more in-depth than this.

Yep yep. Love this whole conversation.

If we assume (safely) that Ben was manipulated, likely for years, into what he is now, then how can we justify manipulating Kylo into giving up that identity through the use of a name he has willfully discarded? Succumbing to the dark side is, in and of itself, a surrender of agency- Kylo serves Snoke and is subsumed by his will in exchange for power. We can’t “free” him by forcing him to revert to an old identity that obviously represents emotional pain and weakness for him. That just sells his contract to another master, it doesn’t empower him at all.

These scenes in fanfiction where someone insists on calling Kylo “Ben” despite his protests often smack of disrespect and a lack of sensitivity. If we intend to redeem him or help him heal or what have you, we have to respect the way he identifies himself and allow him to construct a self-image that reflects his own values, and not the values someone else is pushing onto him – AGAIN.

I used to think I didn’t care for redeemed!kylo, but I think the real issue is that I don’t care for weak!kylo. I don’t want to see him just adopt someone else’s idea of who he should be for the third time in his life. I’d prefer a stronger character that decides for himself what kind of person he will be. So that’s what I’m trying to write… It doesn’t preclude redemption, but it does mean that I won’t be calling him Ben.

^I really like all of this; how its so incredibly clear and concise. Still disagree with the use of Ben, but honestly that’s such a small quibble (in this context), and I’m still reblogging because again, wonderfully worded. I especially like this part:

ohtze:

1) I have major, major problems with this “Ben/Kylo” thing, and it plays a HUGE role in why I’m very much against this trend I see surrounding current redemption meta. You’re right, it is a backwards step for his character (in more ways than one). That said, I’m going to address this (in full) in my meta essay, so you’ll have to wait until then (and for those of you who disagree with my opinion on this, please wait until I explain myself before you get up in arms).

2) Chances of Rey falling to the Dark Side are pretty high, but as for her staying there? Honestly its all smoke in the wind and we won’t get a real tangible feel for this until Episode 8 arrives. Once I see Episode 8 – and if Rey does fall – then I’ll have a much better idea on where everything is going. As for how: there’s a couple ways. Can’t get into it in too much detail right now because my lunch break is almost over, but it could be:

• through her natural inclination to anger (yes, this is A Thing with Rey)
• through a connection with Kylo
• through a Sith manipulating resentment/feelings of abandonment stemming from her childhood
• through coming in contact with a Sith Artifact (see: Rakata Prime, KotOR in general)

There could be other ways, but those are the ones that immediately come to mind.

We can’t “free” him by forcing him to revert to an old identity that
obviously represents emotional pain and weakness for him. That just
sells his contract to another master, it doesn’t empower him at all.

Couldn’t agree more.

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ADDENDUM: Oh my goodness @hyperscanvindictator, I misread your statement! I thought you said you would be calling him Ben, not that you won’t. My apologies.

Old conversation is old, but I still want to signal-boost this.